Workplace mental health: “the anxiety was a weird feeling in my stomach”

Speaker 1:
The Few Who Do with CGU Insurance.

Mark Fennell:
Hey there, my name is Mark Fennell.

Jan Fran:
And I’m Jan Fran and this is The Few Who Do is a podcast from SBS where each episode Mark and I identify a problem and then we look for two people who are tackling that problem in two very different ways.

Mark Fennell:
Correct and in this episode we are looking at Australia’s mental health.

Jan Fran:
That’s right, so we know that 45% of adult Australians have experienced a mental illness.

Mark Fennell:
Now, what do you spend most of your adult lives doing?

Jan Fran:
Me personally?

Mark Fennell:
Yeah you.

Jan Fran:
Regretting mainly.

Mark Fennell:
Wow, didn’t know we’d get into that level of mental health so early. Okay, no I’m talking about working. That’s what most of us do during our adult years just grind it out for the man and regret it in some cases. Which is why today very specifically we’re zooming in on mental health in the workplace.

Jan Fran:
Now, less than half of those experiencing mental illness actually go and seek help for it. So can workplaces be the key to getting that help because three quarters of employees reckon that their workplace should actually provide support to someone who’s experiencing things like depression or anxiety.

Mark Fennell:
And yet there are all of these challenges there like who is going to pay for it and how will they access it and you know that stigma around mental health, it’s still so toxic.

Jan Fran:
That’s right, so today you’re going to meet two people. One of them has taken lessons from his own family trauma and turned it into a business that is changing the lives of workers all around Australia. He makes a mean filet of fish too incidentally. What can I say? He’s a multi-talented guy.

Mark Fennell:
All right, and the other one is using his personal story to break the taboos around mental health and hopefully change workplace culture from the outside and he has a voice that you might just recognize.

Osher Gunsberg:
I’d always had ruminating anxiety from when I was quite little and it was always like images that would flash into my head. They would hit so hard I would flinch and I would feel actual physical pain.

Mark Fennell:
Did you pick it? Just imagine that voice maybe handing out a rose or telling a singer that they’re going to Sydney. It’s Osher Gunsberg, radio presenter, TV host. But way back when he was a kid as you can hear something was really wrong and his parents were the first to notice and so they …

Osher Gunsberg:
Shipped me off to see a psychiatrist when I was about five. Something was clearly odd with me but I figured out early on the anxiety was a weird feeling in my stomach and it would never, ever go away and I couldn’t escape it because it was inside my body and I found a way to make it go away was to put things in my stomach so I started eating pretty much compulsively. I ended up in Weight Watchers when I was eight. By the time I was 17 I weighed about 112 kilos.

Jan Fran:
So that is such a different image to what we would normally see of Osher, right? We just think of him as this dapper guy in a suit that hangs around mansions all day.

Mark Fennell:
Exactly, although the interesting thing is that it wasn’t just food that he was using as a coping mechanism to block that anxiety. So he’s at school and on a Friday they get the kids up to do this sort of skit.

Osher Gunsberg:
I remember standing out there on stage in that moment and I said something and I got a massive laugh out of the crowd. I think I was about nine. In that moment it was like all the noise, all the fear, all the images, all the things that scared me just disappeared. I was in this extraordinary focus point. I got off stage and I was like whatever that is I want more of that. That first laugh was probably the first high I ever got and I just chased it.

Mark Fennell:
Right throughout school he did indeed chase that feeling. He was the class clown and that does come with some side effects.

Osher Gunsberg:
I fell out of high school but I know there’s more to life than the sandwich prep job that Centrelink wants me to do. There’s something else for me, I know there is.

Mark Fennell:
Pretty soon he joined a band, he got his first radio job and my was it glamorous.

Osher Gunsberg:
Driving the station trucks giving away the ice cold cans of soft drink. I was 20. The program director heard me on air and six or eight weeks later I filled in on a late night shift.

Mark Fennell:
He stayed on that night shift, midnight to dawn working six days a week for a few years.

Osher Gunsberg:
It was a tough turnaround but that’s what I did because that was the job and I did it as often as I could. In commercial radio in Australia you pretty much have to wait for one of the daytime announcers to spontaneously combust to get a job while the sun’s up. So I started hunting around.

Mark Fennell:
Eventually he heard that Channel V was looking for a new host and he put together an audition tape and …

Osher Gunsberg:
Put it in the postbox and sent it off to Sydney and two weeks later I was on a plane to interview for this job and then a month after that I was on air at Channel V doing live national television three hours every afternoon, five days a week.

Mark Fennell:
Then in 2003 the big one. Do you remember how big a deal Australian Idol was when it first [inaudible 00:05:02]?

Jan Fran:
Yeah, I actually do remember because I was reading for Cosima De Vito.

Mark Fennell:
What?

Jan Fran:
Do you remember Cosima De Vito? And then she couldn’t sing because she had a problem with her voice.

Mark Fennell:
Oh the nodules?

Jan Fran:
She had like … yeah.

Mark Fennell:
Sorry, I was a Guy Sebastian person.

Jan Fran:
It’s not funny.

Mark Fennell:
Still am, much power to Cosima. So anyway, Osher and his Channel V cohost James Mathison had done these hours and hours of live TV.

Osher Gunsberg:
So you’ve got all these massive skillset that we’d built up so that when it came time for them to look for a duo that could handle a massive live television show, there was daylight between anybody else and us.

Mark Fennell:
For seven years Osher was the face of this … the biggest show, one of the biggest shows on TV.

Jan Fran:
Yes, and I believe he was nominated for a Silver Logie no less.

Mark Fennell:
Ooh, a proper one.

Jan Fran:
A proper one.

Mark Fennell:
And yet behind all of that he had this anxiety that was just lurking and he was self-medicating and by that mean he was …

Osher Gunsberg:
Drinking a lot. When you step off stage after doing 90 minutes of live national television you’re like … you’re just running at a trillion miles an hour because that’s where your brain’s got to have been for handling that amount of operational processing speed to hold down a live television show. So to come down that I was using alcohol which is not a sustainable way to do it but a completely socially acceptable and easily accessible depressant. It turned out that I wasn’t in the end the amount that I needed to feel anywhere normal or feel anywhere near accepted or feel anywhere near okay. Eventually it became way too much.

Mark Fennell:
He realized that he needed to stop drinking but …

Osher Gunsberg:
Yeah, you might make a couple of weeks. I tried a few times probably, I don’t know, eight times to stop. Couldn’t do it.

Mark Fennell:
However he did not give up and he asked for help.

Osher Gunsberg:
I’d met this guy who was gorgeous and talented and had [inaudible 00:06:49] tattoos but he was sober and he was the life of the party. I thought sobriety was sad people sitting on a folding chair in a church crypt with a plastic cup of coffee. So anyway, I said, “Mate, can you help me?” He goes, “Yeah, sure. Come to this meeting.” So we sat on a folding chair. It wasn’t in a church group but I did have a plastic cup of coffee. He took me off to this fellowship of people that worked together to help other people get sober.

Mark Fennell:
So Osher’s following the steps, he’s also trying to keep up with his social life which if you are a television presenter, I am told by other cooler than me TV presenters, involves lots of parties which for Osher presented a whole new set of challenges.

Osher Gunsberg:
I had no idea how I would engage with the world or a party or a restaurant or anywhere where people work because I was terrified of strangers, without alcohol. I just didn’t know what it would look like.

Mark Fennell:
We’re now in 2014. Osher has just finished season one of The Bachelor. He’s living in LA waiting to find out if they’re going to a second series. He’s not drinking, still on that wagon but this is when things get really serious.

Osher Gunsberg:
I was already on anti-depressants but with the extra sedation that I was getting from the alcohol now gone I just basically unleashed this fire hose of wrong. I started experiencing episodes of psychosis which manifested as paranoid delusions. I didn’t know what life could look like without it and certainly when I started experiencing the passive and active suicidal ideation I didn’t know if I could ever get better.

Mark Fennell:
Obviously we know that because he’s talking to us things did get better. He got treatment. But an important key to making that step was hearing the experiences of others.

Osher Gunsberg:
The stories of other people. Oh okay, there can be healing here. This can get better if I just shut my mouth and do what my psychiatrist tells me.

Mark Fennell:
Now, I don’t want to mischaracterize this as like this lightning bolt moment and then suddenly everything was fine.

Jan Fran:
Yeah, I think sometimes there is a tendency to kind of talk about a solution for mental health as a lightning bolt moment and I just don’t think it works like that.

Mark Fennell:
No, it was not quick and it doesn’t end per se. Even now Osher is still managing his illness. He also had a second diagnosis of obsessive compulsive disorder too.

Jan Fran:
Yeah, what does he do with that experience? I know that you were saying how important he found the stories of other people. He is this enormously famous guy, he must have known that sharing his story publicly would have that impact for someone else.

Mark Fennell:
Which is why in 2016 sharing is precisely what he did.

Osher Gunsberg:
I told a story on stage as a part of a storytelling night that happens in Sydney called The Story Club. I decided to talk about this is the day that happened when my brain broke and here’s what happened when I went on the anti-psychotics. It’s the first time that I essentially came out.

Mark Fennell:
Let me just play you this little bit from that night.

Osher Gunsberg:
I’d like to tell you about the day that I lost my mind. Now, I’d told people before that I lost my mind but I didn’t really know what I was talking about. I was living alone in Venice Beach, California and I’d woken after a particularly bad night and managed about four hours of fitful sleep which unfortunately had become the norm for me. It had been about nine months since I’d come off meds but I was under the supervision of my doctor. He observed that I’d been doing pretty well. It was my younger brother’s birthday February 21st, 2014. I was reading The New York Times on my iPad like I do every morning and I’d read the weather like I did every morning and next to the weather they printed that the last month was the 345th consecutive month that was warmer than the last month ever recorded. Now, I don’t know what it was but while reading that something in my brain just burst open and pure white hot fear just came pouring out. Now anxiety isn’t just fear, anxiety is fear of fear and this became a chain reaction that was quickly approaching a meltdown.

Osher Gunsberg:
The physical symptoms are awful enough but nothing that I hadn’t dealt with before but what was happening inside my brain was new and utterly, utterly horrible. In one minute I’d gone from oh 345th warmest month of all time, that’s a concern. And one minute later it was like holy shit, climate change is going to cause a global cataclysm that breaks down society as we know it today. The seas are going to rise today. Anarchy will rule and millions will perish today and I’m the only one that knows about it. But I’ve come to the acceptance that I just can’t handle this on my own. Now it might be different from others but I need a certain amount of medication every day so I can cope with the world.

Osher Gunsberg:
Life is pretty good now. I still have some PTSD from the days and weeks that followed that day because meds take a little while to kick in, they take about three weeks or so. I’m very lucky because I have a stunningly beautiful, smart and kind fiance that I was honest with about all of this from the day that I met her and I went from being unemployed in a foreign country to having about five jobs working with some really great people who are all very passionate about doing the best work that they can.

Jan Fran:
Whoa. What a thing for him to do, to be so open and so candid about such a full-on experience. I imagine could not have been an easy thing.

Mark Fennell:
No, but I think also he hit a point where he felt like he had to do it.

Osher Gunsberg:
I have this incredibly privileged position of having been in the corner of people’s living rooms since 1999, so I’m kind of vaguely familiar, who’s that guy? That blonde haired guy, didn’t he change his name? But it’s enough of an in that people might … what psychosis, him? Okay. And then boom, you’ve got them for a little bit. It’s an opportunity to go hey, hey, everybody, it’s going to be all right. I’ve got news from the other side. Just do what they tell you and take the meds.

Jan Fran:
So how does this intersect with mental health in the workplace? Because I know that he is tackling the stigma of mental health and he’s using that voice publicly. How does that bleed into where we work?

Mark Fennell:
Totally fair point and I am going to get to that because while all of this is happening he also had to deal with it with his workplace and sure we’re talking about a mansion with lots of horny lovebirds here but that was still something that he needed to talk to his managers about.

Osher Gunsberg:
I told Network Ten and I told Warner Brothers …

Mark Fennell:
FYI, Warners make Bachie.

Osher Gunsberg:
… when it was all going down and they were nothing but supportive. Because I’m like, “And this is the psychiatrist I’m going to do and this is the psychologist I’m going to. Here’s my strategy and this is the drug. I’m taking meds for it and I’m managing it.” And they were like, “Okay, we’re with you. We’ve got your back, let’s go.” I work in a creative industry and in some professions I’ve heard of stories if someone goes to any kind of psychiatrist then they’re out but it’s like you wouldn’t that if they had a busted knee or they had diabetes. C’mon man. So people are terrified to be seen getting help.

Jan Fran:
Wait, is that an actual thing that happens?

Mark Fennell:
Yeah, I mean there are horrific cases of stuff like that happening right into the ’80s and early ’90s.

Jan Fran:
Really?

Mark Fennell:
Yeah.

Jan Fran:
Because we obviously have things like the Disability Discrimination Act. I think that came into effect in the early ’90s. So it’s illegal clearly.

Mark Fennell:
Yes, it is, but there’s a lot of ways in which discrimination around mental health can still play out in the workplace now.

Jan Fran:
How do you mean?

Mark Fennell:
Well, okay so management can disclose someone’s mental illness which could damage their chances of getting a promotion and a lot of people just think it’s easier in that situation to resign than disclose it which is really sad when you think about.

Jan Fran:
Yeah. There almost seems to be something about workplaces that is kind of incompatible with having a mental illness. This is going to sound a bit silly but when you’re in a job you’re required to show up to work every day at the same time right? If you’ve got depression say for example and maybe you don’t know that you’ve got depression, you might find it hard to get out of bed in the morning. That’s going to be a massive struggle for you let alone showing up at the same time every single day. Obviously I understand why workplaces want you to do that but how would you manage that as an employer?

Mark Fennell:
Yeah, it’s messy but also before you even get to that stage you have to tackle the stigma of mental illness out in the culture so you can go up to that manager or that boss which is partially why Osher joined the Board of SANE which is this charity that amongst other things is really focused on challenging those preconceptions out in the community.

Osher Gunsberg:
SANE does a great amount of work around stigma reduction and education and advocacy, particularly around advocacy for accessing of services. They help people living with complex mental health issues have longer and more fulfilling lives because the stats are quite alarming on the life expectancies of people with complex mental illness. People affected by a complex mental health issues now that can range from schizophrenia to bipolar disorder to PTSD, severe anxiety, eating disorders. There’s about 690,000 Australians living with a complex mental illness.

Jan Fran:
That is a huge figure. I don’t want to be super clinical looking at it but that’s a huge proportion of the workforce as well, right?

Osher Gunsberg:
You know they don’t live an isolated life there’s probably like at least four other people in their lives that deal with them on a regular basis so that’s a lot of Australians who are dealing with an issue that is no fault of anybody’s it’s just how your brain gets wired. Sometimes it’s how you came out. In my case it’s a combo of how I came out and also what I put in my brain.

Mark Fennell:
SANE run all kinds of programs that help people experiencing mental ill health but I think also crucially those around them as well.

Osher Gunsberg:
If your husband or wife or kid gets diagnosed with a scary sounding name you’ve only heard this word in an NCIS episode, so you think oh shit here we go. So the SANE forums are brilliant because it’s people with experience who are going okay. You can say hey my son or my daughter, my mom, my dad, husband, has just been diagnosed with this. We don’t know what to do, we live in this part of the country, what happens now? What is the first six months of treatment look like? Then people with experience reply to them. Again that’s sharing a story that’s helping people feel a lot less alone.

Jan Fran:
Look, I think we can agree Osher, a bit of a legend.

Mark Fennell:
Right.

Jan Fran:
Just quietly. I agree I think with what you said a little bit earlier Fennell that we need to address the stigma of talking about the problem in order to then address the problem itself right? And Osher does that but the person that you are going to meet next takes that one maybe two or three steps further.

Speaker 1:
Seven in ten Aussies believe that chasing their ambitions has had a positive effect on their mental health but almost half of us hold back from chasing our dreams because we’re afraid of failure. At CGU Insurance we want to help you realize your ambition and support you while you do. Find out more at cgu.com.au.

Mark Fennell:
So we know that mental health is a major issue in Australia and we know that we spend most of our waking adult lives in the workplace, maybe too much some of us. So today we’re asking how can workplaces tackle the issue of mental health.

Jan Fran:
We have just talked to Osher Gunsberg about breaking the stigma around mental illness but right now I am going to take you inside an office, a workplace, a cubicle.

Racquel:
No, that’s okay. Welcome to Acacia Connection EAP, this is Racquel. Oh hi Lisa [inaudible 00:18:53]. I was a waiter at their Christmas party and I heard that they worked in mental health and because I had studied psychology I was looking to break out of hospitality so I rocked up and I was like hey, can I get a job please.

Jan Fran:
That job that she got was at Acacia Connection which no not a plant shop. Acacia runs an employee assistance program. If something in your life is going wrong and your employer is signed up to one of these you should be able to call up and speak straight to a professional like Racquel.

Racquel:
Definitely a harder cause because we deal with a lot of high risk things as well. The people who filter all the phone calls that anyone and everyone who wants access calls the 1300 number so we definitely kind of interact with the clients who want to access for their own kind of mental health and also the actual clinicians themselves. So whenever you call the 1300 number you always just get one of us and we’ll sort you out.

Racquel:
Excellent, not a worry, All right, thank you so much. Bye.

Jan Fran:
Racquel is the first point of contact when someone calls Acacia Connection and she’s that point of contact for over 1,000 businesses so she is always on the phone. The person who hired her after that Christmas party is Greg Kentish. He is the founder of Acacia Connection.

Jan Fran:
Trauma runs through Greg’s family and his story is not a unique one at all. He’s seen the way that it plays out across generations of his family and the damage that it can do to anyone it touches. It all started in World War II with his grandfather Len who was a local coast watcher, in other words a civilian.

Greg Kentish:
So he had to record sightings of planes and ships and that sort of thing. So he happened to catch a ride across back to one of the islands on a Navy supply vessel called the Patricia Cam. When the boat was bombed it sunk fairly quickly.

Jan Fran:
This happened off the coast of Northern Australia and the Japanese military start shooting at them. Greg’s grandfather Len was the only one taken prisoner that day.

Greg Kentish:
And they took him aboard and then flew him off to the Indonesian islands where he was placed in a jail cell and kept there by the Japanese so that sort of essentially the last that anyone saw of him. There are a number of survivors in the water on the boat that were eventually rescued.

Jan Fran:
Len never came home.

Greg Kentish:
My grandmother knew he was taken as a prisoner somewhere but she went many, many years without knowing that her husband had actually been killed and beheaded. That affected my father which has affected my life. It impacts and the ripple effect is felt for many generations. She stayed a widow for the rest of her life.

Mark Fennell:
God there would be so many families over the years that would have stories like that.

Jan Fran:
Right? And I guess it was that ubiquity and the generational experience that partly drove Greg to get into the mental health space in the first place and little did he know that it would actually be his first ever job as a teenager that would prepare him for the jobs that he had later in the life. Guess where he worked?

Mark Fennell:
I mean the way you’re setting this up I want to say hospital.

Jan Fran:
I want to say Macca’s.

Mark Fennell:
What?

Jan Fran:
Yeah.

Mark Fennell:
How does that work?

Jan Fran:
It will make sense, trust me.

Greg Kentish:
When I was 15 lined up in Queen Street with about 200 young people and got the job. I still remember my first shift. I was on a Friday night and I was given the filet of fish station and I’m sure I must have cooked about 300 filet of fish that night it was just ridiculous. But yeah that was my first intro into that and then I became a crew trainer and then a manager and so on, worked my way up from there.

Mark Fennell:
So how does one go from a filet of fish station to starting an employee assistance program?

Jan Fran:
Well a few things. When you’re setting up a business you need good communication, you need to be a team player, you need good customer service. You are looking at me very weird, I am going to let Greg explain the rest.

Greg Kentish:
The processes and procedures at McDonald’s are incredibly strict. There’s not a lot of going outside of the guidelines of how you put a Big Mac together or example. That kind of permeating the whole business. There was operations manuals and structures manuals for everything so I think that’s definitely held me in good stead. Anyone that’s worked there probably in management that would help them I guess in any career because having systems and structures about the way you work in kind of a fairly regimented kid of way is very helpful in terms of making sure things are done consistently.

Jan Fran:
Greg starts working for Queensland’s first employee assistance program. This thing started way back in the 1970s.

Greg Kentish:
And back then the EAP was to provide support with people in workplaces that had drug and alcohol issues.

Jan Fran:
But people were presenting with other issues.

Greg Kentish:
Mental health, depression, anxiety. A myriad of issues that people would come to this drug and alcohol counseling for and that’s when I guess it kind of evolved over that next 10 to 15 years to become a broad support for people across many, many different areas.

Jan Fran:
And there was one night in particular that really reinforced the impact that Greg and his team were having.

Greg Kentish:
One of the girls had forgot to turn the night switch on the phones and I answered this call and it was a young girl who … she was just balling uncontrollably on the phone and it turned that she had post-traumatic stress and so I took her usual details down and connected her to one of our psychologists. But that phone call really touched me a lot because it brought that reality of … and that’s why what we say in Acacia is every connection matters because when you pick up that phone you never know who’s going to be there on the end of the line and what they might need from you in that moment. So I think that phone call really made a big difference for me in terms of realizing wow these people really need us in those moments when they reach out for help. That’s when I kind of grew quite a love for what we do for people because you spend time talking to the psychologist and you understand what they’re doing and really helping people.

Jan Fran:
So that’s when Greg decided to go out on his own with the rather ambitious plan to start Acacia Connection.

Greg Kentish:
You know I started with a half an admin lady who worked from home and you’re doing everything. There’s no pre-manual. There’s no workbook to start from when you’re starting in EAP. And of course I didn’t have any collateral so I spent nearly two years just writing everything manuals, procedures, processes from scratch and as the business … we added more and more customers and you’ve got to do the hard yards. That was probably two years of seven days a week.

Mark Fennell:
Question, how does it actually work? How do they get hooked up with businesses?

Jan Fran:
Well for the most part I think it’s actually businesses that seek them out.

Greg Kentish:
We had a client who inquired for appraisal for their people. Nothing happened, they didn’t kind of go ahead with it. Then a few months later they rang us up and said one of our senior managers has just been put into hospital because he thought he was having a heart attack and he was actually having a severe anxiety attack. They rang us and said, “Can you guys help us with this now because we’ve got this important senior person that’s now got anxiety.” So that was a really interesting wake up call and that happens to a lot of companies where they don’t have anything available and they can then essentially connect straight to us and we can have essentially have a same day appointment.

Mark Fennell:
And what do they actually do?

Jan Fran:
So it’s a counseling service basically paid for by your workplace. You’re hooked up with professionals who have a lot of connections within the mental health space and just a lot of knowledge.

Mark Fennell:
Right, and do businesses have to have an employee assistance program?

Jan Fran:
No, they don’t, that’s the thing.

Greg Kentish:
And I think a lot of that sits around that stigma that sits within business owners and society because if the person at the top of the company doesn’t see the value of it then it’s going to flow down to the other people in the company as well. Sometimes it’s business owners saying well should I have to pay you money to help one of my people with an addiction issue or their depression? It’s their problem.

Jan Fran:
Greg and … look he would say this given that he runs one, he’s absolutely sold on employee assistance programs.

Greg Kentish:
I believe in the benefit. There’s a lot of fantastic employers out there that say let’s get some help to my people. They’ve got some things going on in their personal lives and let’s get them back on track which is what EAP is, it’s short term, solution-focused, come in and have a couple of sessions, get yourself back on track so you can be more productive at work. It seems like a fairly simple argument but it can be really difficult.

Jan Fran:
Now, part of the problem can be that the person with the mental illness doesn’t actually want to pick up the phone. I think Greg just wants to make it as easy as possible for that person to reach a psychologist when they need one.

Greg Kentish:
They can do counseling over text, live chat, even email if they want to. Because there’s still a professional on the end of the line so it’s really about different methods and approaches to get to people to help them.

Jan Fran:
Ultimately I think what this is about is connection. Connecting the right professionals with the people who need them.

Mark Fennell:
Yeah and a huge part of making that connection possible is actually … it’s about removing barriers, the barriers that prevent that from happening. So in Osher’s case it would be removing that big wide cultural stigma.

Osher Gunsberg:
So the choice to share my story was to basically do what had been for me. That was really important. It was extraordinarily powerful and gave me enormous amount of hope when I heard others share their story. I would share with that person to tell them ah okay, it’s going to be all right. There’s plenty of people that can help you.

Mark Fennell:
And then you get Greg who’s trying to remove financial and professional barriers.

Jan Fran:
Yeah and it’s funny because I think we still see mental health as very much a personal thing that is dealt with by family and friends but in a lot of cases we spend more time with our colleagues and our bosses then we do our families.

Mark Fennell:
Yeah, and sometimes workplaces can be the cause of mental health problems.

Jan Fran:
What are you saying?

Mark Fennell:
Nothing, nothing at all. I am however saying that hopefully we can make workplaces not the problem but actually the remedy.

Speaker 1:
This episode of The Few Who Do is presented in partnership with CGU Insurance.

Mark Fennell:
Hey as you’re listening to this, if you do want to talk to somebody you can reach Lifeline 24/7, they’re available on 13 14 11.

Jan Fran:
Beyond Blue is available online as well or on 1300 22 46 36.

Mark Fennell:
And also we should mention Osher Gunsberg’s SANE, they have amazing forums as well and he has a podcast and with that my name is Mark Fennell.

Jan Fran:
And I am Jan Fran and this has been The Few Who Do.